■ Host: anchor Yoon Bori, anchor Woo Jong-hoon
■ Starring: Lee Joon-woo, member of the People's Power Media Special Committee, Park Won-seok, former member of the Justice Party
* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.
[Anchor]
The third presidential impeachment bill in constitutional history has passed the National Assembly, increasing political repercussions. The ruling party is speeding up follow-up measures, saying that the collapse of Han Dong-hoon's system is becoming visible due to a series of resignations by the leadership, and the opposition party is only the beginning of the impeachment bill.
After the passing of the impeachment bill, I will look forward to it with the political circles and the two. Lee Joon-woo, a member of the People's Power Media Special Committee, and Park Won-seok, a former member of the Justice Party, came out. Please come in.
Yesterday, President Yoon's impeachment vote was 204 votes, 85 votes for rejection, and 3 votes and 8 votes for abstention and invalidation, respectively. How did you see the results?
[Park Won-seok]
First of all, with the public overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment, the result shows that the National Assembly has completed the impeachment prosecution according to public opinion. However, in the case of people's power, lawmakers who oppose impeachment still occupy a much larger proportion, and I think they followed this party's sentiment between the party and the public. In the case of members of the People's Power Party, the voices against impeachment are higher, so in the case of lawmakers, it is the will of the members of the party that they see closely, and since the gap is so large, I think there will be a lot of concerns about how the people's power will deal with and reorganize the party in the long term. And isn't the investigation going on? In the course of the investigation, President Yoon's charges are likely to be clearly revealed, and in a way, public opinion toward the power of the people will be much more stinging, so I think the key is how to overcome it.
[Anchor]
Representative Park said that the power of the people seems to have chosen the party out of the party and the public sentiment, but some voted less for it than they thought. I look at it like this, too. What do you think? [Lee Jun-woo] To find meaning in terms of the power of the people, the original party theory was a rejection. Anyway, it was approved. However, the rejection would have been meaningful if there were a lot of leave votes, but there were fewer leave votes. With 12 votes, only 12 people probably followed Han Dong-hoon's pro-impeachment argument, with nearly 100 out of 108 lawmakers not following him. That meaning has been revealed publicly. Then, if the position shown by Representative Han Dong-hoon and the impeachment was left and right, it would go back and forth.
For example, you say you're against impeachment on December 5th, and you say yes on the 6th, and you say yes on the next day, and you say yes on a daily basis. So the fact that the leader is not so restless and calm must have made the lawmakers feel uneasy. Moreover, it was a few days ago. The leader of the ruling party said that the president confessed to the civil war after entering the chairman of the parliament to select the floor leader. You can say that in the opposition. The opposition party is attacking, but the ruling party leader was criticized by lawmakers for not calmly weighing it back and forth, not knowing the context, and rather instigating that he confessed to the president's civil war by interpreting it. So these 90 lawmakers didn't follow representative Han Dong-hoon, which can be said to be the journey or experiment of the party leadership for the past five months. It means that it's like a period of time. The president's office talked about legal and political responsibilities, but I think I took political responsibility. Because my job has been suspended. At the same time, legal responsibility has just begun, so I think you can see it that way.
[Anchor]
I'm asking the committee member an additional question. Do you think President Yoon Suk Yeol's statement also influenced the vote?
[Lee Junwoo]
That's right. In particular, the president criticized the opposition a lot, saying repeatedly that he intended to paralyze the function of the government. Specifically, for example, there have been a couple of impeachment abuse, haven't there? No opposition party in the world would ever propose so much impeachment. So it neutralized the president's right to appoint. And the budget was cut by more than 4 trillion won, making it impossible for the government to manage its own households. It's judicial manipulation again. It paralyzed the judicial function through legislation that allowed the dissemination of false information that would make Lee Jae-myung innocent if he was found guilty of the charges he is currently receiving. As for this anti-national behavior, the president has a responsibility to lead the state administration well.
It can only be seen as a legitimate exercise of defense rights for serious damage to such obligations by the opposition party. Another thing to say about that is that there are allegations of fraudulent elections against the NEC, and I spoke for the first time in my last conversation about confirming the allegations of fraudulent elections. I think it's the same because they said it would be reasonable to check it at least once if it was not a simple suspicion or rumor. So I think a significant number of lawmakers agreed to the last statement and expressed their rejection of the impeachment bill.
[Anchor]
President Yoon's duties have been suspended since yesterday. At the same time, Prime Minister Han Deok-soo paid a courtesy visit to National Assembly Speaker Woo Won-sik today as acting president. Let's actively cooperate with the government and the National Assembly, you emphasized this, how did you see it?
[Park Won-seok]
In any case, as acting Han Deok-soo, stabilizing the state of affairs is the most urgent responsibility, and the role of acting president is, in a way, the role of maintaining the status quo. The constitutional interpretation of the general role of acting authority is that it is difficult to actively exercise authority beyond the status quo. In that sense, cooperation from the National Assembly is desperately needed. Since it is difficult to stabilize the state administration without the cooperation of the Democratic Party or opposition parties, which currently hold an absolute majority of seats in the National Assembly, acting president Han Deok-soo, who has a long experience in public office, is expected to implement it well enough, so I think he prevented the chairman of the National Assembly today. I'm glad I spoke to the president of the United States today anyway. One of the most disturbing things so far has been our security, economy, and diplomacy, and what is a little fortunate is that Prime Minister Han Deok-soo has been in public office for a long time, so he knows almost all aspects of state affairs. Therefore, there are restrictions on your role as an acting authority anyway.
Anyway, since there is such a responsibility for failing to prevent martial law and the investigation agency is even booked, there are some restrictions on Prime Minister Han Deok-soo's active role as acting president, but Lee Jae-myung officially said he would not impeach him, which has been reviewed so far. As such, I think it is necessary to stabilize the state affairs quickly by closely consulting with the National Assembly.
[Anchor]
Earlier today, Democratic Party Chairman Lee Jae-myung made a similar proposal. It is about forming a bipartisan national stability council with the ruling and opposition parties and the government, but the ruling party has rejected the proposal. First of all, let's meet on the entrance screen of both sides.
[Anchor]
You've listened to Lee Jae-myung and Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader. With the president suspended from office, the ruling and opposition parties appear to be fighting each other, what do you think about this?
[Lee Junwoo]
The president is legally suspended, but the president's position remains the same. And because the power of the people is the party that produced the president, it becomes the only ruling party. In this situation, there is probably no such consultative body anywhere in the world to form a ruling-opposition-government consultative body as if the opposition party had contributed to the creation of the government. I say that the ruling and opposition parties and the opposition parties consult on politics, this can happen, but the ruling and opposition parties and the regular consultative body are probably very unfamiliar. Now, the opposition party seems to want to take this opportunity to directly engage in the government and govern something, but it doesn't seem right to me. Because the government cut the budget, prevented the government from working, and proposed impeachment several times. In this situation, the fact that the ruling-opposition party-government consultative body is now coming in at the exercise of the acting authority suggests a plausible organization called the ruling-opposition party-government consultative body as a means to show the political power of Chairman Lee Jae-myung, who is aiming for the next presidential election. So I think it's reasonable for floor leader Kwon Sung-dong to reject it right away.
[Park Won-seok]
If I give you a little additional explanation, CEO Lee Jae-myung will play the role of representing the administrative power himself. Rather than this, the president is actually in a state of vacancy. He maintains his position as president, but he does not exercise any authority. Then the only legitimate institution elected by the people to delegate power is the National Assembly. Therefore, this is not a problem between the ruling party and the opposition party, but between the National Assembly and the government. In addition, as the acting president said earlier, there are limitations in the process of martial law and civil war, and that means that the current cabinet itself has limitations in terms of legitimacy. In that sense, it is a natural role to stabilize state affairs in consultation with the National Assembly. Therefore, there is no ruling party. When the president's function is functioning normally, the ruling party is not elected. Because it is a party that elected a president and produced a president, it is the ruling party, but there is no ruling party when the president is virtually vacant. There are only one and two parties in the National Assembly. Therefore, it is a proposal to stabilize the state of affairs in consultation with the parties and the government that make up the National Assembly, but I don't think that means the Democratic Party will take advantage of this situation to replace the administrative power.
[Anchor]
After the impeachment vote, not only state affairs but also internal chaos of the people's power is growing. It seems that the pressure on CEO Han Dong-hoon is growing now, but this afternoon, CEO Han Dong-hoon requested a press conference and suddenly canceled it. I said I would do it tomorrow morning, do you know why?
[Lee Junwoo]
From what I covered today, I think I originally made up my mind today. First of all, there was a question of when to announce the resignation. Also, what will be included in the resignation statement when announcing, isn't this an important part? But I think I was in a hurry to announce the schedule today. I don't know if it's a mistake because I rushed the time without checking it myself, but I think today's schedule came out at 4 p.m. because I made a mistake. CEO Han Dong-hoon, who came out and found out about it later, said I never said I would do it at 4 o'clock, so I'll correct it and do it tomorrow morning, as far as I know.
[Anchor]
According to the committee member, there was a practical confusion, but what can be interpreted as the conclusion of the committee member's intention that he seems to have lost his mind toward resignation? What can be interpreted as the meaning of the process of moving from this afternoon to tomorrow morning?
[Lee Junwoo]
It's meaningful to resign a day later and resign early, but don't you have close lawmakers? There are close lawmakers and close party officials, and their future and things like that should be adjusted together. There is a lot of talk about who are the 12 lawmakers who are in favor of it, but those who played the role of speakers as a real speaker, who disappeared at the same time when representative Han Dong-hoon disappeared. So, I think that we might have been thinking about these things together. One of the reasons why I have no choice but to resign this time is that a disciplinary request has been sent to the ethics committee. This is a request for disciplinary action against CEO Han Dong-hoon, but isn't the ethics committee reviewing it? According to the article 20 of the Ethics Committee after reviewing, it is possible to leave the party in case of serious party harm. What this means is that the leader of the party resigns automatically unless he is a member of the party. If the ethics committee takes action to leave the party, he will immediately step down from the party leader, and it seems that it would be better to make a decision on his own and resign than to be kicked out.
[Anchor]
Representative Park, the power of the people seems to be concentrating on the pro-yoon system. What do you think?
[Park Won-seok]
I think that's the trend from the election of floor leader Kwon Sung-dong. CEO Han Dong-hoon is signaling a press conference tomorrow, but I think he is leaning toward resignation. In reality, it is difficult to maintain the representative position with all the Supreme Council members resigning. There are many controversies over the interpretation of party members, and I don't think I will insist on such things. I think it can be seen that an emergency committee system will be established. However, whether representative Han Dong-hoon is responsible for the impeachment of the president seems to be another matter. Representative Han Dong-hoon did not cause emergency martial law, and although representative Han Dong-hoon fluctuated in the middle, he expressed his position that he had no choice but to suspend the president's duties according to the will of the people, but I think he failed to persuade the party. Since he became the party leader from the beginning, the party's foundation has been weak.
So there were many observations that it was constantly shaking inside and outside. In addition to Han's unique style, the so-called close-knit lawmakers failed to persuade enough, which seems to have resulted in the same results as yesterday. For the time being, CEO Han Dong-hoon will have no choice but to take a political break for a considerable period of time. But you don't know if politics ends like this. It's a question that we can't say right now what kind of plans we have and how our supporters and the public will judge the effectiveness of Representative Han Dong-hoon in the future. I think we're in an environment where we have no choice but to step back anyway. Then what's the next leadership? Returning to pro-Yoon, I will maintain the party by emphasizing the legitimacy of President Yoon, who has already become a de facto plant, which may be recognized by party members, but in the eyes of the people, the president produced by that party has been impeached twice in a row and three presidents have recently been brought to justice, going back to Lee Myung Bak. Will the people recognize the representation or values of that party? I think you'll have to think deeply about that.
[Anchor]
Both of you are predicting that representative Han Dong-hoon will resign, so how do you predict that the internal landscape of the people's power will change next?
[Lee Junwoo]
When Han Dong-hoon steps down, Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader of the party, will act as acting president under the party constitution. I can't take this acting period for a long time.
We need to set up an emergency committee, but who will be brought to the emergency committee chairman? And if we bring the chairman of the emergency committee, I think this will be a problem how we will organize the emergency committee members. A lot of things have been said today. As the chairman of the emergency committee, there were articles about lawmaker Kim Moo-sung. Also, the names of those who came out of the convention, those who were second to CEO Han Dong-hoon, and the names of those who played together at the convention came out, and we have no choice but to gather consensus by holding a meeting to see what will happen to them.
So, it is said that a general meeting of lawmakers is scheduled for tomorrow morning, but after representative Han Dong-hoon officially announced his resignation at 10:30 a.m., it will be a process of holding a general meeting immediately and gathering consensus on who will be the chairman of the emergency committee. What I want to ask of our party is that in this situation, the people should not appear to be arguing over the party members. The priority is to deal with this situation. Stabilization of state affairs is the first priority. I hope you don't forget that the people are worried about people's livelihoods and the economy.
[Anchor]
While watching the confusion of the people's power, people keep saying that outside the people's power, they will split up after doing that, but inside the people's power, they say that there is no division since we experienced it during the former president Park Geun Hye. What's going to happen?
[Park Won-seok]
No one would think of Bundang because there was a teacher in the past. And in this case of impeachment, there are many opinions that the power of the people is against impeachment anyway so far, and that it could have been if we still stand in the president's position, but it will be difficult to maintain that opinion over time. As I said earlier, the investigation is going on and the pace of the investigation is very fast and the investigation is competitive, so much more charges are likely to be revealed. Then eventually you have to draw a line with the president one day. The reason why it was divided in 2016 was that the so-called pro-Park factions did not draw a line with President Park Geun Hye and tried to go to cover President Park Geun Hye, but were completely swept away by public opinion and the non-Park factions, who said they could not stand it, defected from the party.
So, if the so-called pro-yoon and the current mainstream within the party continue to reveal President Yoon's allegations and the Constitutional Court says they will continue to look at his supporters and maintain the party despite the high possibility of citing impeachment, there may be a split-up like in the past, or some breakaway. However, Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader, has experienced that experience firsthand in the past, and he is the one who split the party. And as he was elected as the floor leader this time, he said that division is more serious than impeachment. Therefore, taking that into account, we will try to manage the situation so that the party will not be divided. The key is to keep holding on to President Yoon. I think this is the key. If you look at it today, doesn't it mean that the special prosecution subpoenaed him, but he refused to summon him? They say they will summon the second time, but if it becomes the second or third time, they will go to the stage of an arrest warrant and an arrest warrant right away. It is inevitable because all the criminals have already been arrested. Nevertheless, if you insist that there is some justification there, I think you will be swept away by public opinion.
[Lee Junwoo]
I don't think there's a high chance of a split. During the last impeachment of former President Park Geun Hye, there were more than 60 lawmakers, centered on the non-Park leader Kim Moo-sung. At that time, 62 lawmakers participated in the impeachment of the Park Geun Hye government. This time, there are 12 lawmakers participating in the impeachment of President Yoon Suk Yeol. So even if 12 people split the party, they can't be a negotiating group, because they have to be 20. If the bargaining group does not work, the agenda cannot be discussed at the National Assembly and agenda consultations cannot be participated. So, since it becomes a party with virtually no power, the Bundang scenario is now coming out with representative Han Dong-hoon at the center, but it is unlikely to be realized.
[Anchor]
Let's talk about the Democratic Party this time. When asked about the presidential election this morning, Lee Jae-myung, chairman of the Democratic Party, said, "I will focus on overcoming the crisis." However, some say that this is a move for the presidential election. Do you think Representative Lee Jae-myung has started a full-fledged presidential campaign?
[Park Won-seok]
Well, I don't think it's a situation to reveal or express it like this in earnest, and CEO Lee Jae-myung seems to be fully aware of that. However, according to the trend within the Democratic Party so far, it is true that there is no presidential candidate other than Chairman Lee Jae-myung, and isn't the early presidential election coming into view right now? Then, of course, I think Chairman Lee Jae-myung will take steps accordingly, believing that such discussions will come out within the party. From Lee Jae-myung's point of view, even before the martial law and impeachment, there were such movements to emphasize the ability to authorize. However, the problem is that the ruling and opposition parties continued to engage in such a hostile confrontation at the National Assembly, and even if Lee Jae-myung tried to show his ability to take power in the economy and diplomacy, he only continued to fight in the public's eyes, especially in the middle class.
The key is how to compensate for this, but in the end, as long as you still support President Yoon or support the power of the people, 25-30% of the people are very hostile, and the public opinion of the middle class is not yet convinced. President Yoon's impeachment was right because he hated it, and he withdrew his support, but there is no firm guarantee that it will go to Chairman Lee Jae-myung or the Democratic Party. The key is how to supplement those things, and above all, the big hurdle is judicial risk. There are ongoing trial schedules, including the election law trial, and it may seem as if they are deciding to impeach each other and competing with each other. As representative Lee Jae-myung, I think the key is how to deal with judicial risks and how to show stability.
[Anchor]
Representative Lee proposed the formation of a consultative body and said at the same time, because the Constitutional Court asked for a quick judgment. In the end, an early presidential election is necessary. Can I interpret it in this way?
[Lee Junwoo]
CEO Lee Jae-myung talked about it during the press conference today, and this is the exact wording of the content. Please expedite the process of the Constitutional Court's dismissal. So the Constitutional Court didn't ask for a quick hearing. I have already assumed the dismissal and asked you to come to a conclusion, so please come to a conclusion quickly. That's what I'm saying. What this means is that you are already walking on the red carpet on the presidential election trail. If you look at it now, the second trial will be sentenced in mid-February next year. It will be in February or March, but we are not receiving a notification of the second trial's data to delay the trial. You have to receive it to officially start the second trial. The second trial will begin.
For example, the court staff went to visit, and the party representative office staff refused to receive it, saying, "I'm not the party that I am, I'm not the representative Lee Jae-myung."
Then you're back. Isn't there a former lawmaker Choi Kang-wook last time? I used the same strategy. Representative Choi Kang-wook also received a notice about the court in his trial, and his aides rejected it, saying, "I'm not Representative Choi Kang-wook." So I think I'm probably going to follow that precedent. So in this situation where the Constitutional Court is running, two months is a very, very good opportunity to go to the presidential election. So, given the delay in the trial in this way and the demand for impeachment to be quickly removed, he is now preparing to run on the red carpet to the presidential election trail. I think I should look at it like this.
[Anchor]
This time, three constitutional judges of the Constitutional Court are vacant, but the opposition party has already recommended three people for the National Assembly. We are pressuring acting Han Deok-soo to quickly appoint a judge, can we interpret it like this?
[Park Won-seok]
Needless to say, it's pressure. In addition to being recommended by the National Assembly, a special committee for confirmation hearings has already been formed and the confirmation hearing has been scheduled. After a confirmation vote in the National Assembly, the president's appointment is just a formality and there is no room for discretion to be involved in it, so it is not unreasonable for the acting president to exercise that power. If I recommend the president's share of recommendation, it will be controversial then. So it will proceed quickly, but the problem is that the terms of the two constitutional judges will end as of April 19 next year, and those two positions are the president's recommendation. So maybe there will be a controversy by then. Eight judges also made the decision during the impeachment of President Park Geun Hye in 2016. One person was empty, but the acting president was controversial about whether he could appoint it or not, but he couldn't appoint it in the end. Lee Jung-mi, the head of the Constitutional Court, decided to dismiss him two or three days before his term expired. Given such precedents, there are quite a few prospects that the two presidential recommendations, whose terms will end on April 18, will be decided before the end of their terms.
[Anchor]
Now the ball is going to the Constitutional Court. President Yoon will not give up until the end. That's what I said. How do you see this part?
[Lee Junwoo]
I'm going to go to the Constitutional Court and argue with the law. And furthermore, he said he was reviewing the request for live broadcasting. He said he would also review the arguments himself. Former President Roh Moo Hyun and former President Park Geun Hye have never defended themselves. Former President Roh Moo Hyun defended 7 times and former President Park Geun Hye defended 17 times. However, if President Yoon Suk Yeol pleads, he will need much more arguments because the issue uses his own authority, unlike other previous cases, so there are detailed judgments on the legality of that authority, the rationality of legitimacy, and such things. And isn't President Yoon Suk Yeol a former legal professional? Then the people who were involved are now being investigated by commanders and police officers. You'll have to call them all as witnesses and ask and answer.
Because from the Constitutional Court's point of view, it's the accused. President Yoon Suk Yeol, the accused, is supposed to listen to everything if he wants. If you don't listen to it and move on without leaving a historical record, it will take a considerable amount of time because the Constitution will eventually be a burden. In that situation, Moon Hyung-bae, the acting Constitutional Court justice, is here today. This person said something meaningful. I asked how I could start the psychology with six people now, and I said I thought I could do it. This person was appointed by former President Moon Jae In of the previous administration. So there's a part where I'm worried about what kind of psychosis this person has.
And another basic principle in impeachment is first-in-first-out when examining. The opposition party probably would not have imagined that the president would go to the Constitutional Court in person and be tried for impeachment. As a result, there are so many impeachments that there are 23 impeachment bills in front of the president of Yoon Suk Yeol. When are you going to sort it out first? There is also this first-in-first-out problem, so I think the judgment at the Constitutional Court will be more complicated than expected.
[Anchor]
This time, let's talk about the investigation of the president of Yoon Suk Yeol. We also broke the news today, but the prosecution notified the summons of President Yoon and eventually refused to comply, but considering the current progress of the investigation by the prosecution and police, which one do you think is closer to President Yoon's direct investigation?
[Park Won-seok]
The prosecution, the police, and the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit are competitively investigating, but there is still a controversy over the prosecution's right to investigate. Insurrection is a crime that cannot be directly investigated, but when Minister Kim Yong-hyun issued a warrant last time, he said that the court could conduct a direct investigation because it is an investigation related to abuse of authority, but the police and the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit are still challenging the opinion, so there is a controversy over the legitimacy of the prosecution's investigation. And isn't there a special relationship between the current government prosecution and President Yoon? And since the current government prosecution has not shown fair investigations or such in cases involving the president or the president's family, starting with the Kim Gun-hee case, some analysts say that President Yoon lost his authority and was forced to impeach him, so he cut ties with President Yoon and the prosecution is in such a hurry.
Since the Permanent Special Prosecutor Act has now been passed by the National Assembly, it will ultimately be integrated into the special prosecutor's investigation. Until then, the investigation will be conducted competitively, and the goal of all investigative agencies is that they will probably try to secure President Yoon's whereabouts first, but the prosecution began to notify the summons today, and if they do not comply with summonses No. 2 and 3, they are likely to go to such a stage as an arrest warrant or a preliminary arrest warrant.
[Anchor]
You mentioned the special prosecutor, but the special prosecutor eventually conducted the investigation during the impeachment of former President Park Geun Hye. Do you think it will be the same this time?
[Lee Junwoo]
Eventually, the special prosecutor will do it. The prosecution, police, and the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit are competing with each other on a single issue, but because of this, the court has too many warrants, so they even ask me to organize them. This is very inefficient. However, since the National Assembly passed the Special Prosecutor Act, the Special Prosecutor becomes the top investigative agency. Then, the prosecution, police, and air defense offices will be dispatched, and the previous investigation data will be handed over and transferred, where the top special prosecutor will do it. The problem is that if the special prosecutor is passed by the National Assembly, the president will appoint the special prosecutor. It may be a little controversial whether Prime Minister Han Deok-soo can do it because he is acting, but if you listen to what Han Deok-soo is saying now, it seems highly likely that he will exercise his acting role and receive an independent counsel to stabilize the state affairs.
[Anchor]
I see. Let's stop here. So far, I have been with Lee Joon-woo, a member of the People's Power Media Special Committee, and Park Won-seok, a former member of the Justice Party.
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