Minju's general attack on the outdoor rally...Yeo, "Lee Jaemyung's 'BTS' rally".

■ Host: anchor Lee Jung-seop
■ Appearance: Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of Yeouido Institute, former head of the National Assembly Legislative Investigation Department Kim Man-heum

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.

[Anchor]
The Democratic Party of Korea held a large-scale outdoor rally today and called for the passage of the Special Prosecutor's Act on First Lady Kim Gun-hee. The people's power is a customized bulletproof rally by representative Lee Jae-myung, who is about to be sentenced in the first trial. Let's talk with Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of the Yeouido Institute, and Kim Man-heum, former head of the National Assembly's legislative investigation department. Please come in. Let's start with this over-the-counter execution. Representative Lee Jae-myung, as well as the leadership, lawmakers, party members, and supporters, gathered in large numbers. Can you first comment on how you saw today's rally?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
No matter how many people participated or what the format was, the rally was just a schedule of Democratic political events where the Democratic Party ordered a full mobilization. So, from the Democratic Party's point of view, it seems to be praying that it will somehow ignite the people and hurt the Yoon Suk Yeol government and topple the Yoon Suk Yeol government. Isn't November actually the time when judicial risk is maximized with representative Lee Jae-myung's trial? So even the people don't like the behavior of the Democratic Party. Since the Democratic Party of Korea is actually a party that occupies the absolute majority of the National Assembly, the responsibility of the first party of the National Assembly for serious situations such as people's livelihood, economy, and security is not light. However, it is hard to say that it is a meaningful event because it is only revealing that it will pressure the president by neglecting this responsibility and conducting a political incident. In my view, the logic of attacking the Yoon Suk Yeol government as a party that has an absolute majority in the floor. I want you to look back on them. For example, isn't it necessary to look back on responsibility, fairness, common sense, and democracy, legal justice, and people's livelihoods? The public's view of the Democratic Party is not good. Doesn't it appear in the party's approval rating as well?

[Anchor]
I see. Representative Lee Jae-myung made such a remark that stupidity or magic shakes the state administration, and also mentioned it in comparison with the candlelight revolution at the time in 2016. How do you see this?

[Kim Man-heum]
Representative Lee Jae-myung will discuss the candlelight in 2016. CEO Lee Jae-myung received attention from the central stage with his speech at that time. So it's worth mentioning. However, today's original event was organized as a Democratic Party event, as Vice Chairman Cho said a while ago. Kim Gun-hee, the special prosecutor, and also condemned President Yoon Suk Yeol's way of managing state affairs. And on the other hand, the Democratic Party may have the purpose of showing off something powerful. Depending on how you look at this, you can interpret it as bulletproof and pressure. However, the situation changed two days ago when a recordings related to the president surfaced. Today, there was talk of manipulating state affairs. By today's time, even if the word "state affairs manipulation" is used, the people are not that awkward. Of course, Choi Soon-sil intervened in speech-related, personnel, and political issues during the 2016 Park Geun Hye presidential manipulation. This time, it will be a party-related issue, and a different level of controversy where people with uncertain status had stories with the president and his wife. Anyway, I will talk about the nomination of former lawmaker Kim Young-sun later.Ma said, "Since what the president and Myung Tae-kyun talked about was directly revealed and controversial, I think the opposition party is in a situation that can be approached in terms of manipulating state affairs."

[Anchor]
We'll talk about the recording in more detail later, but the rally itself was held to urge Kim Gun-hee to investigate, but the focus is shifting to the president's manipulation of state affairs after the recording of the phone call between Myung Tae-kyun and the president was released. At the opposition level, there seems to be an opinion on the president's impeachment, so what do you think about the possibility of this fire spreading?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
No substantive truth has been identified at this time. So, it is true at this point that suspicions related to the nomination have been raised, but other than the president's political opinion, there is no specific situation that he exerted pressure on the nomination management committee or the party's supreme council, which is the highest decision-making body of the nomination. Only suspicions are rampant. So, I think it's the Democratic Party's political action to try to drive it to the manipulation of state affairs. It has already focused on November and talked about impeachment, but recently, it has been announced that it will shorten the term of office through constitutional amendment. Why would you do that? So, isn't there a prayer underneath that if the presidential election is advanced even if he is convicted in November by creating a chaos in the state of affairs, the Democratic Party can lead the political situation in the way they want before the Supreme Court's final ruling comes out? In the end, it started with the intention that if we move quickly to the presidential election, we can invalidate Lee Jae-myung's criminal charges and judicial risks and deceive the people, so now I think that the Democratic Party's careful strategic calculation lies behind the manipulation of state affairs, impeachment, and shortening the term of office.

[Kim Man-heum]
So far, I don't think they've officially brought up impeachment. In terms of content, we are talking about the resignation of the president. As you can see today's sign, it is at the level of emphasizing the independent counsel and the responsibility of the president. I don't know the process that's going on. For your information, the first weekend rally was held on the 29th after the tablet PC came out on October 24th in 2016. As soon as I entered, there was talk of resignation. At least that's not the case right now. At that time, when there was talk of resignation and resignation, even if it was the ruling party at the time, the party belonging to the president of Park Geun Hye was raising the issue. If there is a controversy over impeachment afterwards, how will the current situation be perceived within the power of the people? It is noteworthy how the impeachment controversy beyond the special prosecution will emerge, depending on the direction in which the issue is settled in the relationship between the presidential office and the power of the people.

[Anchor]
Eventually, a plenary session is scheduled for next month. It's scheduled for the 14th. The Democratic Party of Korea is now in a position to pass the Special Prosecutor's Act on Kim Gun-hee, and many opposition parties occupy it. It seems that it will pass, but attention is paid to how long it will be if there is another vote on whether or not to vote again when the president returns after exercising his veto, but I wonder what you two think. Can you tell me first?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
It is true that the current situation is unpredictable. It's difficult to make predictions because the current situation is severe and public sentiment is at rock bottom. Nevertheless, the Democratic Party's political intentions and calculation methods seem clear, what's wrong with them. The people know that. So, I don't think it's a situation where you can get involved in the Democratic Party's intention and get on it. People's power lawmakers may be concerned, but it seems that they are not in a situation where they can go that way yet. Then, around the halfway point of the president's term on November 10, the president's office will express its position, and over time, the people's power can change the atmosphere by breaking through the current crisis or expressing their position to the people. In other words, there may be a total reform or a statement of position on the people, so in the current situation, the Democratic Party of Korea will pass the plenary session on the 14th of November and if the veto is exercised, it will be re-voted at the plenary session on November 28, but in my view, there is no circumstantial situation in which such a sudden change will occur within a month and a large number of leave votes will come out. There may be some people who are shaking, but that's what I see.

[Anchor]
I see. CEO Han Dong-hoon has been silent anyway, how do you see it? Will there be an impact?

[Kim Man-heum]
Before CEO Han Dong-hoon, the ruling party keeps saying that it is attracting this for bulletproof purposes. Even if it is not for bulletproof purposes, controversy over judicial responsibility of the ruling party leadership, including Chairman Lee Jae-myung, is certainly weak. In fact, it was not desirable in our nationality. On the one hand, the president is distrusted by the public, and the leadership of the opposition party is in a situation where controversy over judicial responsibility is set to be sentenced soon. As a result, it became a situation where they became blood waves and fought each other in some ways, but they lived in symbiosis. Obviously a weak ring is a weak ring. So, I would like to point out that it is necessary to hold judicial responsibility as it is and to ask the same about the president's problems, but it is difficult for each other to water down. Regarding Han Dong-hoon's representative move, it seems difficult for me to exercise my veto right as it is in this case. As you know, I don't know if it was a so-called actual private meeting last time, but it wasn't an official briefing when we had a private meeting. According to the story behind it, if the Kim Gun-hee issue is not dealt with clearly, I'm not sure if it will be rejected when the request for reconsideration is made, Chairman Han Dong-hoon said, "That's what President Yoon Suk Yeol should do at the National Assembly." Moreover, since this issue was raised two days ago on the 31st, if the special prosecution is conducted, the situation may spread further, including issues related to the president, and if the request for reconsideration is made next time, the four people were left as Maginot Line last time, but I can't guarantee that either.

[Anchor]
I see. I think it's a very difficult situation to predict. First of all, there is another burdensome part for the ruling party, and the president's approval rating has reached a new low every day. Yesterday, Gallup Korea's regular poll came out, and the 20% approval rating has collapsed, so if you look at the graphic now, it's 19% positive and 72% negative. It seems that the transcript wavelength has not yet been accurately reflected. Since this was done during the week, there is a prospect that there is a possibility that it will go down further. What do you think?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
It's true that it's a clear crisis. It was October 31st that the Democratic Party released the recording of Myung Tae-kyun. However, since the survey announced by Gallup Korea was probably between the 29th and 31st, it was partially reflected, but if it was reflected, the approval rating could go down further. It is true that no one can deny the possibility. However, usually pollsters hold the psychological cordon and support level at around 20%. Now that 20% is down, it's a mess, even though it's a 1% difference. However, we need to look at the question of whether it is at the level of collapse after 20% has collapsed. If you look at the past cases, in the event of an uncontrollable crisis, you can fall by 3 to 4%.It's hard to say that Ma is going to break down the psychological cordon now, and then he sees it like this.In terms of party support, the public's support for power is still almost equivalent to that of the Democratic Party, right? Then, since the voters and the people are not withdrawing from the conservative forces as a whole, we cannot deny the possibility of a downward trend, but we cannot say that it will happen. Then, as I said earlier, since it is a full-scale crisis, I think the party or the president's office will somehow change its position. We're going to find the point of rebound among them. We may go in the process of slowly recovering, let me tell you this.

[Anchor]
How did you see your approval rating?

[Kim Man-heum]
Since it is viewed as a full-scale crisis, you said that some innovative measures could come out this time, but I hope that happens. However, as you know, since a month and a half after the president took office, the negative evaluation has been much higher than the positive evaluation for more than two years. Isn't the situation of going back and forth in the early 20% range continuing after losing the last general election? So CEO Han Dong-hoon, who felt a sense of crisis, even requested the so-called solitary confinement and made three official demands. In terms of form, the survey was conducted from the 29th to the 31st, so there is a possibility that it will fall much lower than 19% because the 31st value is not reflected and the public opinion expanded after the 31st is not reflected. And the current poll of the president of Korea includes antipathy to the opposition party's relatively judicial risk, so if such issues start to turn off, they start to turn off. In the case of Japan, when Kishida went down, it went down from 30% to 16%. It's when the other person doesn't have a problem. In that respect, there have been reflective benefits to the extent that they have responded to judicial risks, but there will be no end if they start to collapse. Instead, what other new measures are possible that President Yoon Suk Yeol's response is now coming out remains another variable.

[Anchor]
We'll pay attention to the reactions. The day after the Democratic Party of Korea released the recording, an audit of the presidential office was held at the National Assembly yesterday. It was an audit of the steering committee, and chief of staff Jeong Jin-seok had a war of words with opposition lawmakers. We've gathered some of the key remarks. Let's take a look at it first and talk about it.

[Yoon Jong-gun / Democratic Party member: It's a terrible situation. Voluntarily resign from the president with the mindset of preventing further chaos in state affairs and saving the country, (do you have no intention of suggesting it? )]

[Presidential Chief of Staff: The presidential office clearly confirms that there is nothing wrong with the recordings, politically, legally, and common sense. ]

[Jeong Jin-seok / Presidential Chief of Staff: I think it's the continued context of the opposition political campaign to save the leader of the party by killing the president. ]

[Jeong Jin-seok / Presidential Chief of Staff: No, I went to a temple in Gyeongsangnam-do at 4 a.m. with CEO Lee Jun-seok and planted red plum blossoms. ]

[Cheon Ha-ram / New Reform Party Member: Water burns, does that burn? This is why the approval rating is this shape. ]

[Jeong Jin-seok / Presidential Chief of Staff: Think about the approval rating of the New Reform Party. Are you kidding me? )]

[Anchor]
You've heard a lot of comments. There were sharp workshops, and we listened to some of the major remarks together, and it was a very rough battle. First of all, Presidential Chief of Staff Chung Jin-suk has no political, legal and common sense problems. In the end, he said there was no problem with the recording. How would you like it if you could give a review?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
It's a situation at the parliamentary inspection site. It's emotion-to-emotion. That's why it's so hard to stand up, right? For example, the current situation in the presidential office is actually embarrassing. After that, the Democratic Party lawmakers' speculation and political offensive have been flying day by day. And in a sense, some people raise the issue of the possibility of editing transcripts, so it's a mess because it's mixed up. Nevertheless, from the perspective of the presidential office, defense is inevitable, but there are cases in which several positions that have been put forward in relation to the Myung Tae-kyun case have been reversed or proved to be untrue. So, because of that, the public's view of the presidential office's explanation is a little damaged, and I think Chief of Staff Jeong Jin-seok should have taken this into account. So even if we defend ourselves, I think it would be better to make a serious defense logic in a situation where there are serious responses that contain sincerity or apologies for the confusion caused by false explanations rather than evasive comments.

[Anchor]
You pointed out the disappointment of the defense strategy. How did you like it?

[Kim Man-heum]
In the meantime, the various countermeasures of the President's Office have not always been appropriate. You don't do it when you have to respond, but you grow your work after a long time. Recently, the president said that there has been no exchange between the president and Myung Tae-kyun regarding the controversy over his brother and the overall issue, but isn't it revealed now? However, because it came out in a day yesterday, it came out because it was not thoroughly prepared, and since Chung Jin-seok, a former lawmaker who served up to the fifth term, he thought he would show his ability to respond appropriately depending on the political situation. I don't think we've prepared enough. For example, you said you were not responsible for anything legally, politically, or common sense, but aren't you already being hit politically? Legally, it seems to be a controversial situation. Next, who has been explaining the term "unusual" for a very long time, did CEO Han Dong-hoon keep saying that it is the level of the public? In that sense, it was not common sense to say that the presidential office's responses did not meet the public's expectations. This time, the president talked about the nomination of a specific person with Myung Tae-kyun.Will the public think there is no problem after seeing that Ma has had such a conversation with a person who blames Kim Young-sun like this? I don't think so.

[Anchor]
We'll deal with that in a little while, but if we look at each side's position on the legal issue you mentioned, we'll see the basis. First of all, the time when Myung and the president talked on the phone was May 9th last year. He's an elected president. It's the day before the inauguration. So, the power of the people is that there is no problem because it is the day before the inauguration ceremony. In any case, the Democratic Party of Korea's nomination was decided on the inauguration day, May 10th, and is in office. I think I'm a little divided about this interpretation. I think this is a very controversial issue. What do you think about this?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
This issue has a legal aspect as well as an aspect of national sentiment. But you can't mix the two together. Because what the Democratic Party is claiming now is that the president is calling for impeachment for violating the law while in office. Let me tell you first that legal issues must be strictly considered. So, isn't it the day before the Democratic Party revealed it? Then, you are the president-elect, but there are no regulations on the legal status of the president-elect. Rather, the transition committee law requires that transition members, chairmen, and vice-chairmen are equivalent to public officials, but the president-elect is a civilian. Therefore, it is difficult to apply the violation of the Public Official Election Act. So I have to go strictly. If you look at what we're saying at the legal level, it seems to go against the national sentiment, right? So you can't mix these two together. As I said earlier in the process, nothing has been revealed about the editing of the transcript or whether he actually communicated his intention to the mission members or was involved in the decision of the Supreme Council other than the mention of the mission committee on May 9. Since it is at the level of suspicion, it is not an issue that the Democratic Party of Korea will go on an excessive offensive by leading to legal controversy, I think so.

[Anchor]
They say that legal and emotional distinction is necessary.

[Kim Man-heum]
It's actually not a very good strategy to talk about the possibility that people who talk about this regularly will be legally responsible because of the legal controversy, the status of public officials. If this goes as far as the reason for impeachment, it would be possible to say that it was not a presidential term, and in this sense, he was not a public official. However, under the Political Parties Act and the Public Official Election Act, even if you are not a public official, it can be a crime if you interfere with the election competition if you are in the command and supervision system with a position that deserves to be in the command and order system, so if it is implemented, it may be an illegal reason, but as Vice Chairman Cho said a while ago, whether it was done during the period of his job, this seems controversial when considering impeachment later. But what if additional data comes out during a period other than May 9th? It has not been released so far, but there is a possibility that if the problem arises other than May 9, it may collapse to say that it is before the official inauguration of the position, which the ruling party mainly protested.

[Anchor]
And among the comments we've just seen, we're going to point this out as well. You saw the battle between Representative Cheon Ha-ram and Chief Jeong Jin-seok, and here, Representative Lee Joon-seok is responsible because he was the representative of the people's power at the time. You seem to be handing it over, but what did you think about the explanation and the part of handing over the subject?

[Kim Man-heum]
Lee Joon-seok, then leader of the party, was controversial because one of the two things was the by-election when representative Lee Joon-seok was doing it, followed by the 22nd general election this year. What was controversial at first was that during this general election process. The latest one came out during the by-election. During the by-election, if there was any responsibility, it would be Lee Joon-seok at the time, but Lee Joon-seok said this after the issue came up. Since the official nomination is under the name of the party leader, the seal was under his name, but he was never involved in the mission. At the same time, if he tried to nominate using his will, there was a possibility that he could be restrained, he has this nuance. But what's a little different is that I said before that there was no one to give because only one candidate, Kim Young-sun, was selected. Looking at the remarks interviewed yesterday, the two were competing, and the person he knew from the broadcaster he knew supported the other side, and Myung Tae-kyun said that he applied to former lawmaker Kim Young-sun, which is slightly different from what Lee Joon-seok said before.

[Anchor]
And when he was arguing with Representative Cheon Ha-ram, he said to think about the approval rating of the New Reform Party. What did you think about this part? Do you think it was appropriate?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
Here's the context in which it came out. As far as I know, Rep. Cheon Ha-ram has repeatedly said that his approval rating is this shape as he continues to stimulate. Then, however, isn't the president's chief of staff a person? If you stimulate and provoke in that way, you can't keep getting pushed and going. And what's more?Representative Lee Joon-seok and the New Reform Party are among the key parties involved in the Na Myung-tae-kyun case. Isn't it true that Chilbulsa planted red plum blossoms in connection with this year's general election? It's also true that during that busy campaign, I visited and met him that night. And it's all confirmed through the media.Ma was not a common relationship between Rep. Lee Joon-seok and Myung Tae-kyun. And most of all, who will take responsibility if Lee Joon-seok is not responsible for the nomination when he is the party leader? If he couldn't get involved, he's an incompetent representative. If you were involved and it happened as you say, isn't it your responsibility? So, in my opinion, whether it's representative Lee Joon-seok or lawmaker Cheon Ha-ram, there's nothing to say, but I understand that he's taking an aggressive posture.

[Anchor]
First of all, the Democratic Party is demanding that President Yoon explain himself and take reasonable responsibility anyway. Director Jeong Jin-seok also said that his position will be expressed this month, and I'm also curious about what type of message will come out or what do you think should come out? What message should I send?

[Kim Man-heum]
Even if things didn't happen, President Yoon Suk Yeol needed to take responsibility for the state affairs again. So, I'll do it if I have a chance, but I'll have to do it at the level I can at the earliest age. The Democratic Party of Korea has data related to Myung Tae-kyun, but the presidential office or the ruling party is not there, so they are talking about the possibility of being dragged. If you don't do something altogether, including such uncertain situations, it will become more difficult in the future. It's not just the Yoon Suk Yeol government that becomes difficult, but the state operation is also very complicated. As you know, the president's support is now down to 10%, the leader of the main opposition party has two first trials in November, and the leader of the second party has the final trial. That is why, if you are responsible for this issue, at least as president, you will find it difficult to turn it around unless you show a clear attitude to take responsibility for this issue, including even the issue of First Lady Kim Gun-hee.

[Anchor]
I see. And President Yoon is expected to be absent as president from the National Assembly's administrative speech scheduled for Monday, so the prime minister is expected to attend instead. How can I interpret this part?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
It's known that you'll probably not be able to attend. It's very unfortunate. You didn't go to the opening ceremony of the National Assembly last time. Based on the practices, customs, and traditions of parliamentary democracy, you're going, but the Democratic Party, which has an absolute majority in the National Assembly, has come out with impeachment at the leadership level. And through outdoor rallies, they continue to show quite aggressive stance, saying, "Go away and step down," and in this situation, it's hard for anyone to encourage the president to participate. So, I think it would be difficult to suggest participation in this kind of atmosphere until a certain level of consensus culture and parliamentary democracy has some consideration for the other party.

[Kim Man-heum]
In this case, I think I should attend. When I did not attend last time, Director Jeong Jin-seok said that what he said was a desecration when the president attended, but he said that there was no need to go. In this case, public opinion is raising a number of issues that the president should be responsible for, and it should go to at least that level. The president said this last time. When a problem related to Mrs. Kim Gun-hee came out, she said she would get hit if she threw a stone. It was a wrong word at the time. We should accept the criticism from the people, not accept it. However, at least in this case, even if the opposition party says harsh things to the president at the parliamentary level, I think the president should go to the president's speech.

[Anchor]
I see. If we mentioned it a while ago, let's talk about additional recording. The Democratic Party of Korea released a recording of the phone call that Myung Tae-kyun had with Representative Kim Young-sun. It was recorded in mid-June 2022, after President Yoon Suk Yeol took office, and we will listen to it and talk about it again.

[Myeong Tae Gyun (mid-June 2022): Don't you have to get close to Kim Gun Hee to win the 6th term? You have to do what you're told. Kim Gun-hee is in power. Why don't you do what you're told to do? ]

[Anchor]
As you mentioned, it was a recording of a call that was gushing. First of all, if you look at the specific time, the by-elections took place on June 1, 2022, so if you say mid-June, it's after the by-elections. Kim Young-sun is a former lawmaker, but after he was elected at the time, could you explain how Myung Tae-kyun shouts at a fifth-term lawmaker?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
In a nutshell, it's a pathetic situation. It's been a month, but former lawmaker Kim Young-sun has been the party leader. As a politician and a person in politics, I feel ashamed that such a person is threatened in that way. If you look at what's been reported in the media, it's not a common relationship because the two of them are sharing their salary anyway and then paying for the polls. However, it seems that Myung Tae-kyun is actually manipulating former lawmaker Kim Young-sun. If you want to do it right, listen to me, you have to borrow other people's power and talk about whatever threats Myung Tae-kyun makes. It was seen that Mrs. Kim Gun-hee was mobilized there. Just because Myung Tae-kyun said this, the actual truth does not matter whether Kim Gun-hee will actually play the role or not. Isn't this someone who runs a poll business and is betting on the politicians he has a relationship with as a broker, so anyone can use it to talk about it in the process? So, this remains a suspicion, but it can't be confirmed. How do you trust every word of a person who is overconfident in his or her power? I think we should look at this in a cold and rational way.

[Anchor]
It was mobilized, and I thought Mrs. Kim Gun-hee was mobilized, but anyway, during the mention, she says, "Kim Gun-hee is in power." How can I see it?

[Kim Man-heum]
I asked him to see me rationally, but rationally, would a five-term lawmaker have just fallen for Myung Tae-kyun's bluster? I wonder if it's because you've grasped the power relationship that can be confirmed indirectly. Rep. Choo Mi-ae was elected once more in the 22nd general election, and there is a record that she is a sixth female.Up until then, a five-term lawmaker is the highest number of Korean women in the past, four or five. Looking at the situation in which he did this as if he was distracted by the most elected lawmakers, I think this reflects not only the relationship between the two, but also the hierarchical order that has become strange indirectly with the presidential office, so I think that not only the relationship between the two, but also the recording is linked together, further reducing trust in the current political situation.

[Anchor]
I see. There is also a claim from the Democratic Party that there will be a lot of recordings in the future, but we will see what level it will be. I'll wrap up the story here for today. So far, we have talked with Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of the Yeouido Institute, and Kim Man-heum, former head of the National Assembly Legislative Investigation Department. Thank you for talking today.