"Discussion of martial arts" at a hamburger restaurant...Who is the key person, Roh Sang-won?

■ Host: Kim Sun-young Anchor
■ Starring: Shin Ji-ho, former Vice-President of the People's Power Strategy Planning, Kim Hyung-joo, former Democratic Party lawmaker

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN NewsNOW] when quoting.

[Anchor]
Political commentary with a living angle, let's start at the minute. We have the two of you here again today. Shin Ji-ho, former Minister of Strategic Planning for People's Power, and Kim Hyung-joo, former Democratic Party of Korea, came out. Welcome. The Constitutional Court's time has begun. Yoon Suk Yeol's president has expressed his position on the investigation for the first time since the impeachment bill was passed. Judging from the position taken by the defense yesterday, the crime of rebellion cannot be established. And the president of Yoon Suk Yeol will go to the Constitutional Court in person to reveal it. I think they revealed this strategy.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
It's a two-pronged idea.There is a battle of rebellion in the formal and logical dimension of whether the president is right to attack his own power. Also, from a legal perspective, the incumbent president cannot be arrested unless it is a crime of rebellion. I think there's that part, too. As for what the president himself wanted to do, he is asking where the two-hour martial law is. Personally, I think the president is telling an obvious lie. Didn't the incumbent soldiers actually take live ammunition with them because they thought there was no real justification in the middle or that there was no live ammunition in the first place and then it was actually overturned? I feel like I'm lying, as if I instructed myself to do so late with something that I didn't accept in terms of this being a problematic order. Through that, the legitimacy of one's logic and martial law is strengthened, and on the other hand, if it is not a crime of rebellion, the area to investigate the incumbent president is blocked. It is true that the prosecution is not legally allowed to investigate the crime of rebellion. It's a situation where only the police can do it or only the air cooperation headquarters can do it. It seems that they are making a strategic judgment that there is room for dispute in that area.

[Anchor]
So, President Yoon Suk Yeol went to the Constitutional Court and asked for a live broadcast, but it is now known that the Constitutional Court will not broadcast it live. You must have this intention to expand the public opinion by expressing your position yourself like this, right? [Shin Ji-ho] But it was on the 12th. In the presidential statement, he said he would stand up to the investigation or impeachment, but if you look at the progress since then, various documents are simple. You can get it. Aren't you not receiving it by using various methods? You're not picking it up, are you? In the market now, President Yoon Suk Yeol or Representative Lee Jae-myung. Why did Lee Jae-myung move to this situation again and the transfer was unknown, delaying the delivery of documents for the Public Official Election Act appeal trial. So there are a lot of people saying that national leaders are acting at the level of market mongering. The president will do his best on the 12th. Since you made a promise to the people like this, I think you can act accordingly.

[Anchor]
Anyway, I'm planning a strategy while forming a team of lawyers. As I told you earlier today as a breaking news, there were several investigative agencies, but regarding President Yoon Suk Yeol, we decided to transfer it to the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit. This is how the breaking news came in. I keep asking you to attend, but you refuse. Do you think you're going to keep this strategy going? Or at what point do you think you're going to go out and be in the photo line?

[Kim Hyung-joo]
It is believed to be a salami tactic, but as a result, the head of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit may be arrested by issuing an arrest warrant, providing security, and holding a fight, as mentioned in the National Assembly. I am sorry for the surprising part that the president's appearance is not apologetic and reflective. However, I did something wrong, and I thought that friction was inevitable because you maintained this stance, and the process of delivering official documents two or three times on such matters was to build up a justification for such an arrest warrant. I think that's going to be in that standard of justification until today. Inevitably after two or three days... because five people, including the Minister of Defense, are now secured as workers involved in the civil war. And since the president is the leader, in that respect, whether it's the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit or the prosecution, we can't delay it. Because there is a public opinion that why the head of the group who has the possibility of destroying evidence is not quickly captured while all the workers and the criminals are held as they are, can't the presidential security guard or the security guard be let go of that? In the process of extreme confrontation, only the process of delivering the president's recruits to the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit or the prosecution remains, I think so.

[Anchor]
With the end of the prosecution and police investigation heading toward the president of Yoon Suk Yeol, martial law is being revealed one after another as to who made the decision and how it was realized. Roh Sang-won, the former intelligence commander who was not mentioned in the early stages of martial law, is now drawing attention. What role can it be considered to have played?

[Shin Jiho]
I think it will be the most important part of this martial law-related investigation. I think why the former intelligence commander, who is a civilian, served as the control tower for the second time after former Minister Kim Yong-hyun. The head of the civil war is the president of Yoon Suk Yeol. Isn't it that former Minister Kim Yong-hyun played the role of number two? The arrest warrant also says the main mission worker. In my opinion, isn't No. 3 former intelligence commander Roh Sang-won? But this person is a civilian. Since I've been discharged from the military, I'm legally a civilian. Why did civilians play a number three role in emergency martial law where the military was mobilized? This part is very important. The reason is that the president was justified in invoking the emergency martial law. But why do civilians play the role of number three? So, when it comes to whether it is a civil war or not, Rep. Kim Hyung-joo said earlier, "Does it make sense that it is a civil war that attacks his power when he is the president?" In a way, but in history, there is a pro-Wi coup. If it turns out to be a pro-Wi coup, it can be a clear civil war. If so, the fact that a civilian named Roh Sang-won intervened very deeply as martial law's No. 3 was not a normal emergency martial law exercise based on the law, but was it done for a different purpose. Because it can spread like this, I think the investigation related to the Senate will be very important.

[Anchor]
There is circumstantial evidence to suspect that it is deeply involved. I think it would be nice if you could show me the graphic. It's two days before the martial law declaration. There is a circumstance that former commander Roh Sang-won secretly called in incumbent intelligence commanders and executives two days before the declaration of martial law to plot martial law in advance. Former Minister Kim Yong-hyun is known as a junior and closest aide to the Korea Military Academy. He is now drawing attention as the architect behind the martial law crisis and drafting the decree. Former commander Roh Sang-won, retired general. Rep. Kim Byung-joo of the Democratic Party made this analysis of this person. Let's hear what you're talking about.

[Anchor]
Some incomprehensible parts are appearing one after another. So, it's a bit of a puzzle that the key figures met at a hamburger store two days before the martial law declaration. Why are civilians involved here, I think many people will be wondering.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
I'm a civilian, but I'm not just a civilian, but I'm a non-president anyway. What did he say next? Next time, you're the commander and then you do it. They decide the order of the stars. What it is is to think that these people are already linked to Minister Kim Yong-hyun and even higher, the president, and hope that if they follow this line well and receive instructions well, they will be able to become a general and eventually become a commander and rise. I have expectations. What these people do is that they're so-called black agents, so they're assassination experts. So, pick a few people from them in advance, someone who listens well. If I say that, I don't know if I failed.Ma said, "For example, arresting or detaining factors, even some conspiracy theories, but this is the work of North Korea," and prepared a team to create the legitimacy of martial law. It's enough to imagine this. Because that's what he did. They prepared such a person in advance to those who manage the black agents. Another thing is that there was an arrest team for Han Dong-hoon that was hard to say is a simple suspicion, or that he actually went to the main office and planned such a project. These parts are coming out, so the mosaic hasn't been completely put together yet.Ma seems to be a part of the difference between whether it's done or not, but it's been reviewed up to that point.

[Shin Jiho]
There are also talks about Han Dong-hoon's arrest team and he went to take over the Central Election Commission's server in Gwacheon. It's mixed with a lot of things. So I have to organize this. He was the first to go to the Central Election Commission an hour and a half before martial law was invoked by the Gwacheon National Election Commission and martial law troops entered the National Assembly. The unit is not an HID pig unit. I went to Gwacheon from Ansan. So the general officer of the intelligence agency went. At the same time, there is an intelligence brigade in Pangyo. About 30 agents were waiting there. There's an HID there. What was HID's mission? This is very important. But I told you that Han Dong-hoon was arrested. HID is not an arresting group. And CEO Han Dong-hoon is in his 50s, is it that hard to arrest him in his 50s? Counterintelligence agents, investigators, special forces, and even police officers who entered the National Assembly. Not a soldier, but a police officer. A man in his 50s is quickly arrested. HID was waiting in Pangyo at that time for arrest? This doesn't make sense. And if you really wanted to make an arrest, HID would have gone into Congress.

[Anchor]
There must have been a different purpose?

[Shin Jiho]
Then, what is the purpose and mission? This has to be found out again.

[Anchor]
It is a situation where various information is mixed, and a perfect puzzle has not been solved, and why did HID need to be revealed later, but why did former Minister Kim Yong-hyun need Roh Sang-won who became a civilian in such a situation where he took control of the Ministry of National Defense? It takes control of the intelligence company, what does this mean? I'm curious about this, too.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
Anyway, an information company is literally an organization that handles core information. But there was a story just now.Ma doesn't have an IT expert. I don't understand that either. When people dealing with information asked me to bring a server with dedicated IT technology, there was no technician. So, bring it back no matter what. The NEC did the same. If you went to Pangyo, there seems to be a possibility of that, an IT center. There is an effort to secure it through data or information. Nevertheless, I have no choice but to have a question because Roh Sang-won himself was in charge of black agents, so he has such suspicions. There is no known part about how to deploy those personnel because they did such a terrifying secret job as so-called North Korean operatives, but there is no law not to even plan such a part. It is also true that in the case of DSC in the past, such things were made by scenario. This time, half of it didn't work. I think you should look at it like that.

[Anchor]
With former commander Roh Sang-won giving up the warrant review today, the arrest will be decided today. As you pointed out earlier, given that you are a civilian, a key statement will come out in examining the legitimacy of the martial law procedure.

[Shin Jiho]
So when did it start? Various testimonies are coming out right now. After the general election, the president's mouth began to talk about emergency martial law, because former Minister Kim Yong-hyun was the head of security and was nominated for the defense minister in August. And after a confirmation hearing, we will start working in early September. This is my brain's official statement, but wasn't there such a thing in the president's mind when he transferred Kim Yong-hyun, the chief of security, to the defense minister? I also think that's when an action plan for this emergency martial law began.

[Anchor]
I often talked about martial law to my aides. Because of these testimonies, when they were planned and this part will be revealed later. Han Dong-hoon's arrest team has been activated. Amid this talk, YouTuber Kim Eo-jun even ordered his death. You claimed it like this. Let's listen to the Democratic Party members about this.

[Anchor]
Democratic Party lawmakers are also conducting mixed analysis on Kim Eo-jun's shocking claim that Han Dong-hoon was ordered to kill him. However, it is known that the Democratic Party tentatively concluded that Kim Eo-jun's claim was fictional.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
There is no way in the United States to admit this, and even if there was such information, it is not easy for Kim Eo-jun to get into it. And I think the composition of the scenario is quite clumsy. If such an attempt was made, it would have raised doubts about the North's responsibility to the extent that it could be seen or such parts. No one actually believes this to be true even within the Democratic Party. Did the president hate it that much? to the point of killing It must be that part, but in reality, it turned out to be a lie, but isn't it practically impossible for then-Minister Kim Yong-hyun to have martial law at the hearing? How is that possible when all Koreans have cell phones and cell phones are all cameras? It will be more impossible within the National Assembly. In that sense, it is actually a waste of public power for such stories to come and go from the National Assembly. I think so. Rather, I think it's possible to ask behind closed doors at the Information Commission or something.

[Anchor]
It happened to be before the impeachment vote, and it wasn't just about YouTube, it was about over-defense. I think it was a fiction, it's not a matter to move on to.

[Shin Jiho]
That's what I see too. Because Kim Eo-jun is not just a critic or a YouTuber now, but he was also involved. So Kim Eo-jun, get away from someone quickly. If you don't avoid it, you'll be in trouble. After receiving this report, he felt threatened with his life and fled somewhere. That's what I said. And then he came to the National Assembly and testified. In the subtitles earlier, the Democratic Party said there was a lot of fiction, but when I looked closely at the report of the Democratic Party, Kim Eo-jun said 1, 2, 3. They reserved the judgment on No. 1 and No. 2 due to lack of evidence. Han Dong-hoon was killed, followed by Cho Kuk, Yang Jung-cheol, and Kim Eo-jun. It's a reservation of judgment on that.

[Anchor]
I need to check that a little more?

[Shin Jiho]
Fact-checking is necessary. I heard that it is not easy for even the U.S. to wiretap non-phonic phones, saying that this is unlikely. What this presupposes is that the U.S. wiretapped the presidential office in Yongsan, where Kim Eo-jun mentioned 1, 2, 3, and 4. Maybe that's what lawmaker Bu Seung-chan understood and Kim Eo-jun said. But I can't pierce my phone. It seems that there is no basis because even the United States of the world cannot penetrate it. That's what I said. So whether this is true or not is not necessarily directly related to non-Phone. Because it's a different matter than wiretapping. So this is what it is, so what was the mission of the day of the HID North Korean operatives who were waiting in Pangyo, and this is the key.

[Anchor]
So, we can't say whether Kim Eo-jun's argument is true or not, and the Democratic Party seems to be trying to take a very cautious position. If that's true, it can be another basis.

[Shin Jiho]
Then it's going to be a huge deal. So talk about 14 major politicians, and if the president himself finds it difficult, make sure to arrest three. Isn't that Han Dong-hoon, Lee Jae-myung, and Woo Won-sik? However, beyond simple arrests, even casualties are being talked about now, and I can't easily say anything, but I think it will be revealed during the investigation.

[Anchor]
Kim Eo-jun also said that he can never reveal the informant, so it seems to be a part that needs to be confirmed later whether it is true or not. The prosecution's investigation is now being conducted in all directions. Regarding the suspicion of Myung Tae-kyun, a golden phone was obtained again, and many people saw the breaking news yesterday, and what this was about was that the investigator was suddenly arrested. Is this an investigation into President Yoon Suk Yeol? How do I look at it?

[Kim Hyung-joo]
The contents of the incident do not matter because it is a local election before he became president, but as a result, President Yoon's authority fell to the ground. I can't help but look at it like that. Why should the prosecution investigate or not after holding this publicly? Isn't it a long time ago? Of course, while investigating coins, I think this problem became like a separate investigation. However, if these things start to pour out after the president's authority is suspended, I think that the problems about Kim Gun-hee and various cases around the president can only be seen as a signal that the prosecution begins to speed up the investigation without addition or subtraction. Through this, Myung Tae-kyun, a health judge around the president, is trying to move everything with a secret line, not with a solid line? Adding to that suspicion. That's why this administration became like this, and didn't it get stranded because it didn't even go half the way like this? I can't say I ran aground or not because the results of the impeachment haven't come out yet, but isn't it the whole people saw it? How the president solves the problem. That's why he created a president who insults our people. I think it's a signal about that.

[Anchor]
That's why some say that the prosecution now has Myung Tae-kyun's golden phone, but also the lawyer's phone. There was also a camp during the presidential election, so I think you know it well. Master Geonjin, what role did this person play and to what extent was this person involved?

[Shin Jiho]
I thought I played an important role in my own way, but I've never seen Myung Tae-kyun or a health monk's face. And when President Yoon had the Gwanghwamun presidential primary camp, he didn't come to the camp office that often. How much work do you have to do? Then, if I thought the camp was the center, I would have come out often to encourage something and instruct me to do something, but I didn't come out that often. So, there were times when I thought, "Is this okay?" Looking at it later, I think there were such movements under the water.

[Anchor]
Anyway, he was arrested this time in 2018, so he was not involved with President Yoon Suk Yeol at the time, but considering that time, he was in the days of the Liberty Korea Party and the representative was Mayor of Hong Joon Pyo.

[Shin Jiho]
Looking at the allegations that he was arrested this time, he was accused of receiving hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes because he said he would let him win the nomination for Yeongcheon mayor in Gyeongsangbuk-do. It is not directly related to President Yoon Suk Yeol, but there is a possibility that information related to President Yoon Suk Yeol may be released in the process of forensics that it is a so-called judicial phone.

[Anchor]
The other thing that the prosecution holds is the golden phone of pollack bacteria. There is a Democratic Party lawmaker who met Myung Tae-kyun. Let's see who it is.

[Anchor]
I asked why it was Park Joo-min, and he said he felt it, but how should I interpret it if you say that?

[Kim Hyung-joo]
Soon, if I get arrested, I'll be able to find out about the prediction of pollack bacteria within a month. Isn't that all of them turned out to be true? That's the part. Why is it that in this administration, the feeling, the magic, and so on... Of course, that happened a lot in the last years of Park Geun Hye's presidency.Ma, that's an inexplicable part. Rep. Park Joo-min thought about getting a meaningful physical certificate of his own, but he couldn't get a golden phone.

[Anchor]
They said they met for about 30 minutes.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
That's why I came out after listening to Myung Tae-kyun's whining, which is hard to understand. Still, Rep. Park Joo-min should be grateful. Because I'm a Democrat who gets a feeling. At this opportunity, I got a flash on the screen. I don't think I can understand Myung Tae-kyun's feelings. In the beginning, I tried to make a deal with the current government and it didn't work out, so I wanted to do business with the Democratic Party, but his opponents lined up with the Democratic Party and tried to do something with the current government at the end, but as the president suddenly declared martial law, it seems that he is stuck in a state where he can't do it either.

[Anchor]
They say they got a feeling, but when they choose lawmaker Park Joo-min, I think Myung Tae-kyun will have his own method of counting.

[Shin Jiho]
I don't know what's inside of it, so how can I understand it? Anyway, it seems clear that Myung Tae-kyun has already organized his mind about the president. So, when I was arrested, I did a lot of service to President Yoon, but it was the iron furrow that eventually came back to me. Because of this, he must have been very disappointed and discouraged, so there must have been something about President Yoon. However, the fact that even Rep. Park Joo-min visited him means that he will no longer consider President Yoon at all.

[Anchor]
It's a declaration of war. Representative Park Joo-min was quite reticent in the media interview today, talking with Myung Tae-kyun. Once the trust relationship is secured, we will be able to hear more. Then, do you think there is a possibility that Myung Tae-kyun will continue to reveal his claims through Democratic Party lawmakers in the future?

[Kim Hyung-joo]
That's a possibility. However, there is something that the Democratic Party needs to organize. There seems to be a problem of that dimension. On the other hand, Myung Tae-kyun, on the other hand, everything is buried in the impeachment craze. So I have no choice but to think about how to bring my story out of the world. Then, rather than joining hands with the ruling party, we need to join hands with the opposition party to take the initiative and create issues. I think there's such a calculation method.

[Anchor]
Anyway, looking at Myung Tae-kyun, who started communicating with a Democratic Party member, I think the inside of the people's power will be disturbed. Let's talk about the power of the people. Former representative Han resigned. Let's say we had a dinner with close lawmakers on the day we resigned. Representative Kim Sang-wook, who expressed his official position in favor of impeachment, talked about something. Let's listen to it.

[Anchor]
I will not give up to my supporters on the day I resign. It's Han Dong-hoon, the former CEO who expressed his position, and he said the dinner was originally scheduled that day.

[Shin Jiho]
It was originally planned. It's said that there were almost a lot of things to talk about, but rather than political stories, stories about living around. And CEO Han Dong-hoon will probably take a break and look back for a certain period of time. There are things like, "I don't regret it when I look back," but there may be many things that I felt sorry for. So I think we'll have that kind of time for a certain period of time from now on.

[Anchor]
There are many people who interpret that if the early presidential election is held, I am willing to go there, but there are many who predict that the political landscape will change depending on who becomes the emergency committee chairman this time. How do you see it?

[Kim Hyung-joo]
Given that those who are named as emergency committee chairmen are not those outside the party, but are pro-Yoon-gye of multiple-term lawmakers in active duty, it is highly likely that Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader, will also serve as emergency committee chairperson. I'm going to ask you that today. If you ask that, don't do it, who would say that? And even if I look at it, Na Kyungwon, Won Heeryong, and Kwon Youngse are coming out.Even if someone else does it, it seems that it would be much better for the power of the people to create a single line than to be confused by two similar people. In that sense, no matter who becomes the emergency committee chairman, I think it will not be easy.

[Shin Jiho]
However, for me, the people who are talking about now are Kwon Young-se, Na Kyung-won, or Kwon Sung-dong, who just concurrently serve as the chairman of the emergency committee, but there is no difference in nature. That's why we call the old system, the old system, the Angsiangrejim. So I think this will be Yoon Si-Anglejim no matter who the three of you are.

[Anchor]
However, if Chin-yoon leads the presidential election, the chairman of the emergency committee will make some rounds anyway, and if that happens, it may not be easy for Han to create a space.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
So I don't think it's wise to create space inside. Rather, he's the one who can go out and open up the so-called Seven Republics with a new spiritual world in the wilderness. I heard that there is no system called voting for all members of the People's Power.

[Shin Jiho]
For reference in making key decisions. It is supposed to conduct a party opinion poll for reference, not for decision, but there is no provision like the Democratic Party that determines an agenda through a vote of all party members.

[Kim Hyung-joo]
That's why, if there was a structure in which the party leader eventually loses when the opinions of party members, party members and floor leaders, who support Han Dong-hoon, who is 60 percent overall, collide, the only answer is to choose the Democratic Party's candidate, who is currently in the party, with overwhelming public opinion and conservative public opinion if he cannot win the election, rather than surviving internally under the emergency committee chairman system.

[Anchor]
In the case of Mayor Hong Joon Pyo, he strongly criticized the former representative Han Dong-hoon's approval for impeachment, but there must have been good circumstances for Mayor Oh Se-hoon, and close lawmakers criticize him like, "What logic is this?"

[Kim Hyung-joo]
That's possible. Isn't that why you're sticking to a double standard? I don't understand it well when Mayor Oh Se-hoon initially opposed impeachment and went to support impeachment, even though he told close lawmakers to get him out of office and strongly reject it. However, in that sense, let's do it well among ourselves. To say a gesture of goodwill, I think Mayor Oh Se-hoon and these people, the same level of presidential candidates as the next person, that is, I think I can win if I do Oh Se-hoon internally.

[Anchor]
Since I'm more competitive, Mayor Oh Se-hoon has a lot of peace of mind. You evaluated it like this, and finally, if you collect some of the remarks that are coming out now in the case of Hong Joon Pyo Mayor, there are about 80 lawmakers who opposed impeachment, so can you see it with this ulterior motive that I will come to the presidential election with the card that those pro-Yoon lawmakers are giving out?

[Shin Jiho]
However, in the case of the mayor of Hong Joon Pyo, there was strong opposition from lawmaker Park Jung-ha yesterday, but it has already been a long time since the logic broke down. It's been a long time since such controversy broke out depending on emotions when talking about things that don't logically add up. In addition, I don't think I can control my emotions well. That's why it's like that. The mayor of Hong Joon Pyo is not the problem, and I could also serve as floor leader Kwon Sung-dong and chairman of the emergency committee today, but Lee's emergency martial law is said to be a serious mistake, or the party's argument is that impeachment is rejected, so this has no logic. It's almost like a non-logical thing. So, the most important thing of this party is that politics is about words, and if you want to speak, shouldn't you stand up like this? It's not logical. I'm in a state of logic breakdown or no logic right now.

[Anchor]
Anyway, martial law is wrong, but I oppose impeachment, the logic of this people's power. Regarding this, some say that senior players should make a group move or apologize to the public. How do you think about it briefly?

[Shin Jiho]
I think we should do that. Senior players have fallen into a strange world and now a big trend of the people, this big trend. I think he was afraid of the river of impeachment and fell into the sea of martial law and is floundering now.

[Anchor]
I'll stop talking about Jungkook. They were Shin Ji-ho, former Minister of Strategic Planning for People's Power, and Kim Hyung-joo, former Democratic Party of Korea. Thank you.