Is 'Concrete Dundeok' the main cause of the disaster?... the speed of identifying the accident.

■ Host: Anchor Jeong Jin-hyung and Anchor Lee Eun-sol
■ Starring: Kim In-kyu, Director of Aviation University Flight Training Center, Journalist Baek Jong-kyu of the Social Affairs Department

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN New Square 8PM] when quoting.

[Anchor]
An on-site accident investigation has begun in earnest to determine the cause of the Jeju Air passenger plane disaster, which caused massive casualties. On top of that, criticism of violations of regulations continues to be raised against defense facilities, which have been cited as the main cause of increasing the scale of damage from the disaster. Let's take a closer look with Kim In-kyu, director of the Aviation University Flight Education Center, and Baek Jong-kyu, reporter of the Ministry of Social Affairs. Welcome, two of you. Reporter Baek, the concrete structure at the end of the runway at Muan Airport caused damage in this disaster. These comments keep coming out, but I heard this structure was replaced last year.

[Reporter]
That's right. This is what the government has revealed. About 250 meters away from the end of the airport runway, a 2-meter-high concrete structure was piled into a pile of dirt. It's an azimuth facility that helps the plane land, so it's a localizer. It's a structure that supports this. Including local risers, they are all about 4m high. The airport said it reinforced the foundation last year by replacing a 15-year-old localizer. Regarding azimuth facilities and local risers, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport said that even during the initial design, concrete supports in the form of dunes were included. Since then, the improvement project has been carried out, and it has been reinforced by installing an additional 30cm thick concrete top in the form of a separate pile. He explained that it was to fix the support because it should not be shaken by the rain and wind when installing it. He also explained that he supported the concrete support because he thought the material was not limited because it was outside the safety zone. Regarding the reason for making the support in the form of a blunt object, he explained that it seemed to be the optimal construction method at the time of the initial design. Regarding the fact that the height of the hill has risen by about 2 meters, he explained that the facility cannot perform unless the facility is raised above the height of the runway. "The antenna should always be built high because the angle of transmission is not sufficient," he said. Regarding the question of whether the outer wall behind the hill increased the scale of the collision, he said, "I will clearly investigate the cause of the accident." I'm repeating this over and over again. As a result, it is pointed out as a factor that caused a major disaster, but since it is consequential, a clear investigation into the situation at the time is needed.

[Anchor]
I told you earlier on the report. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's manual, the foundation of the azimuth support is stipulated to be installed at the same height as the ground surface and on a soft ground, but wasn't it actually a concrete structure? This will require more investigation, but can it be considered a violation?

[Ingyu Kim]
There are some areas where it is difficult to determine whether it is a violation right now. There's something I need to review a little more. However, the basic things about these regulations are ICAO document 9157, domestic guidelines for the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport based on them, and installation standards. We need to look at those contents a little more closely.

[Anchor]
So from the pilot's point of view, did he know this?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, you can't know this at least when you're flying. You don't even need to know. These are usually things that the people who install or manage these things will know and manage.

[Anchor]
In fact, foreign media are pointing out that this is difficult to understand, so what do you think of this part?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, I learned that there are such facilities through this accident. Actually, it's something I don't understand either.

[Anchor]
What part do you not understand?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, there are standards for these facilities, and we need to first recall what the purpose of these facilities is. Then, the facilities installed should meet the purpose of minimizing or reducing aircraft damage when the aircraft overruns like ever, but I think that was not considered at all.

[Anchor]
Reporter Baek, what explanation is the government giving now regarding this?

[Reporter]
The government first explained the location of this structure. He explained that it is farther than the minimum standard and closer to the recommended standard. International standards, etc., say it is a mandatory minimum of 90m, but the recommended standard is 240m. Muan Airport, the distance of this area is set at 199m, so there is no problem. In addition to local risers and this area, 60m is added to the distance of the landing pad, which is a safe area, it is installed 250m away. It also claimed that the localizer was outside the runway end safe zone. End zone refers to the zone established after the end of the landing platform to reduce damage to the aircraft if the aircraft fails to stop in time after landing and passes the end of the runway. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's aviation obstacle guidelines, all equipment or installations considered obstacles on the airport site should be mounted on fragile pedestals, but the regulations do not apply to installation equipment outside the end-to-end safety zone such as Muan Airport Localizer. So I've argued that there's no problem with local risers and concrete structures, which are supports, according to regulations. However, experts explain that follow-up work such as revising regulations is urgent as the risk of obstacles in the airport has been confirmed.

[Anchor]
Eleven domestic accident investigators and eight U.S. joint investigators are investigating the accident site. The U.S. investigation team also focused on looking at azimuth facilities and support structures today?

[Reporter]
That's right. First of all, the U.S. investigation team arrived yesterday. I looked at the localizer of the airport azimuth facility. The National Transportation Safety Commission, the Federal Aviation Administration, and Boeing officials toured the scene of the disaster at around 2:30 p.m. today. Officials from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's Air Railroad Accident Investigation Committee also accompanied the scene. They went directly up to the localizer, which is a protruding concrete structure. The U.S. investigation team carefully examined the localizer structure damaged in the collision. It is said that he did not approach the aircraft and mainly observed the outside of the accident on the hill. It seems that it was judged to be an important facility to determine the cause of the accident.

[Anchor]
Sir, the longitudinal safety zone at Muan Airport itself was also shorter than the standard. What do you think about this point that the domestic recommended standard is 240m, but Muan Airport is 199m and 200m.

[Ingyu Kim]
Even if it's 199m, anyway, we have a longitudinal safety zone, which has a mandatory scope and a recommended scope. As mentioned earlier, it is 150m and 300m from the 90m and runway end. In the case of Muan Airport, facility equipment is currently about 251m. Even if it is shortened to 199m, it is actually within the scope of the recommendation. However, according to the proposals and recommendations proposed by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport, it is not a problem, but in fact, whether the azimuth provision facility on the precision approach runway can classify it as a facility, and then whether it can fall under the extended scope of the longitudinal safety zone.

[Anchor]
But I told you that the domestic regulation is 240m, but the international regulation is longer than this. I heard it's 300m, but since we need this, there are some recommendations and standards, right? Is there a reason why the international standard is 300m?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, it's the same length. It depends on where you're based. If you take it from the end of the runway, it becomes 300m, and if you measure the area where 60m came out of the runway, it becomes 90m from there, so if you add 60 or 90, it becomes 150. So if you look at the overall length, it's the same length. So this is not to say that international standards are long and domestic standards are short. There seems to be a difference in where you set the baseline.

[Anchor]
Some say that there are a number of measures that could have prevented the disaster, and EMAS appeared among them. Please explain what this is.

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, it has not been introduced in Korea yet, but some have been introduced in overseas airports because it is said to be an engineered material arresting system. This facility is High Energy Upserving Rutual. What this means is that it's a material that absorbs energy. The existing runway on the runway extension is very hard to express. As we have to withstand the load on the runway. However, this area will be made of a much softer material than the existing surface, so if the aircraft passes through the area in herbal medicine, it will be a facility that prevents the aircraft landing gear from going further due to resistance.

[Anchor]
The runway itself acts as a brake, right?

[Ingyu Kim]
That's right.

[Anchor]
But isn't it that it didn't exist?

[Ingyu Kim]
We don't have it in our country. There are not many airports in foreign countries yet. But we are in a situation where installations are gradually increasing. Therefore, it seems necessary to actively consider the installation of such facilities, especially in Muan or short runways.

[Anchor]
If this happened, could the damage have been reduced assuming the same situation, in other words, assuming a fuselage landing?

[Ingyu Kim]
I think I got a very great help. I think it's a very effective equipment.

[Anchor]
I see. At the time of the accident, some of the communications of the pilot and control tower of the accident were revealed, and these parts will be one of the key to determining the cause of the accident, but the accident investigation committee is also looking into this part.

[Reporter]
That's right. Yesterday's new revelation was Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, the pilot shouted 3 times and mentioned twice that it was a bird collision. I said that I would dock. We have revealed some of our communication with the control tower. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport is looking into the black box analysis and communication between the control tower and the accident plane. At that time, two controllers in charge were working in the control tower. The accident investigation committee obtained the entire control communication records yesterday. It is said that they conducted an interview with the controller who analyzed the contents and communicated with them. However, the accident investigation committee did not reveal which communications were exchanged at the time. What the situation was is an important investigation to determine the cause of the accident. First of all, the accident investigation committee has not yet revealed the contents of the conversation with the controller. It was also pointed out that the accident machine did not have enough maintenance time before. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport says it will decide whether to improve the system by looking at whether other factors should be considered in addition to maintenance time. The accident model is B73. The takeoff and maintenance time set by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport is 28 minutes.

[Anchor]
As you said, the situation will be a really important investigation process for the cause of the accident, but after the captain shouted a bird collision and declared Mayday, a communication disorder with the control tower suddenly occurred. What kind of situations can you expect?

[Ingyu Kim]
Of course, it's expected. First of all, the timing of the bird collision is very important. At the approach stage, the bird collided and the captain decided to repeat it. In that case, in fact, communication problems or power outages, etc., I think we can consider both engines dead. An engine is actually like a generator. Like a generator, it's connected to a generator, so while the engine is running, it turns this generator and supplies the power needed for the aircraft. But if both of these go out, electricity is lost. In that case, we switch to DC batteries.

[Anchor]
I think you said that if the electronic equipment is not supplied, it can be cut off.

[Ingyu Kim]
I think that's why the story of power cutoff came from there. So, if the power is transferred to the DC battery, communication will use only the minimum equipment, so only one long-range radio can be used. In that case, the assistant manager probably would have been in charge of communication in that urgent situation, but I think it would have been a little difficult in terms of time and environment to suddenly change the radio and communicate.

[Anchor]
So what do you think about the cause now? When we talk about why it got cut off, it's not a long distance. It's relatively close, and when both engines went out, the power would have been turned off, and only then would there have been no communication, so why do you think this situation is?

[Ingyu Kim]
That's the most mysterious part. If a pilot collides with a bird shortly before the final approach, when training with the original producer or pilot, it is recommended to land right away. But if the pilot was mistaken or decided to repeat it because he thought one engine was still alive, it could be the current situation. But in fact, not only one engine died, but both engines died. That situation resulted in a rise in a situation where they had already decided to repeat. The pilot became aware of such a situation late.

[Anchor]
The timing of the bird collision is also very important.

[Kim In-gyu]
Yes, that's very important.

[Anchor]
And so far, it has been revealed that this disaster caused more casualties because the plane failed to slow down due to the landing of the fuselage due to the landing gear failure. Is the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport investigating the connection between landing failure, engine failure, and landing gear failure?

[Reporter]
In the meantime, there will be no correlation between engine failure and landing gear failure by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport. That's what I said. But I changed the story a little bit today. For the first time today, we acknowledged the possibility that an engine abnormality will lead to the failure of Landin gear. If both engines
fail, the hydraulic system may malfunction and cause problems. However, when everything broke down, there was a manual lever, so I drew a line on the premise that the engine failed and the landing gear did not come out. He also mentioned that it is possible to estimate the situation as to whether the manual lever of the cockpit was not operated, but that it is possible to know the exact content that you need to see the black box. Contrary to the previous position that it does not lead to engine failure and landing gear problems, the government is the first to admit that if all engines fail, the landing gear can be affected through the hydraulic system.

[Anchor]
As our director said earlier, if the engine breaks down, power will not be supplied, so one of the electronic equipment, landing gear, may be related. That's what it's about. But can't landing gear be opened physically?

[Ingyu Kim]
That's right. Actually, landing gear is not electronic equipment. It is hydraulically operated. So, the engine runs with hydraulic pressure and pumps. It also generates electricity and air that opens the air pressure into the cabin, and it plays a number of roles. It's not just about getting thrust.

[Anchor]
Then, at the first landing attempt, the front wheel seems to have come down normally, wasn't it shown like this?

[Ingyu Kim]
That's right. So what I don't understand now is that the landing gear has definitely come down in the first approach. But in that situation, whether one engine is out or both engines are out, in fact, the most appropriate measure is to get off and land right away, so it becomes very important at what point it was.

[Anchor]
Then what kind of assumptions can we make? On the first landing attempt, the landing gear worked, but it didn't come down after the repeat.

[Ingyu Kim]
It's not that he didn't come down after the repeat, but after he decided to do it, so he had a bird collision. We were approaching and had a bird collision, and the captain habitually and customarily decided to go back. After that, the rest of the engines ran out, so both engines ran out.

[Anchor]
I'm guessing right now.

[Ingyu Kim]
That's right. But if we track the situation after that again, wouldn't we go up again and go back 180 degrees right away? If so, the situation itself does not work at all if both engines are not out.

[Anchor]
Isn't it that it can be operated manually even if it goes out?

[Ingyu Kim]
It can be operated manually. It's usually time-consuming to do it manually. That's why it must have been difficult in that short time.

[Anchor]
Speaking of fuselage landing. Isn't there not only landing gear, but also a device to slow down, a flap, and a speed brake called a spoiler at the back of the wing? None of these things seem to have worked either. What do you think is the reason for the urgent attempt to land the fuselage?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, the flap is also hydraulically operated. So if this doesn't work, it's operated by an electric motor, but it's very slow, so there seems to be no room to do these things in a short time.

[Anchor]
It's taking longer than that.

[Kim In-gyu]
is correct.

[Anchor]
So, you briefly mentioned the possibility of a shutdown that cuts off electrical power, but are you also looking at the possibility related to this?

[Reporter]
The government also mentioned once that there was a claim that the aircraft might have been cut off during the landing. In the case of shutdowns, there is a problem with the aircraft's electrical system. It is impossible to rule out the possibility that both engines that play a key role, including the supply of aircraft power, have been damaged. You said that normal operation is not possible when both engines fail, but if there is a problem with the power supply, the landing gear, which is a take-off and landing device that requires a large output, may not work. So, May Day made an emergency declaration and there was a content that communication between the aircraft and the control tower was cut off. That's why there's a possibility that the plane has been shut down. In addition, it was analyzed that the previously mentioned flap or landing gear, which controls the speed after landing, did not work because of the shutdown. However, for now, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport is only an estimate of the power shutdown. It explains that the exact result will be known only by looking at the black box.

[Anchor]
Sir, I understand the parts you explained earlier, but is that the mechanism that worked like that the same condition applies to all planes?

[Ingyu Kim]
There are slight differences in names and systems, but it can be seen as almost the same.

[Anchor]
I guess it's not a problem with this model.

[Kim In-gyu]
The system is actually almost similar for Airbus as well as Boeing.

[Anchor]
There are countless estimates in the absence of accurate investigation results, so more attention is paid to the results. How will the results of the investigation proceed in the future?

[Reporter]
First of all, the accident investigation is largely divided into two branches. We are conducting field investigation and black box decoding. Eleven accident investigators from the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's Air Railroad Accident Investigation Committee and eight U.S. joint investigation teams were dispatched to the Muan site to investigate the accident. First of all, he said he saw a blunt instrument today. However, it seems that the state of the debris and dispersion of the gas have been checked. Evidence is expected to be collected to find clues to determine the cause of the accident from the remaining parts. The accident investigation committee reportedly moved to the black box Gimpo Airport's test and analysis center of the accident machine secured at the site to clean the surface of foreign substances and check the condition. However, among the flight recorders and voice recorders, the flight recorders said the connector connecting the data storage unit and the power supply unit was missing. There is one mass that stores black box data and one mass that supplies power, and the line connecting the two is the connector. But it's lost. This is because it is difficult to confirm the reason for the loss. After the data extraction work, it seems to be a rough process to discuss which institutions will participate in the analysis together. It seems that a technical review, such as how to extract data, should be conducted.

[Anchor]
Sir, what happens if I can't retrieve this connector?

[Ingyu Kim]
The cause of the connector's loss is unknown, but in fact, the connector is manufactured in the United States, so a joint U.S. investigation team started an investigation together. I expect that the delay in the investigation will not last long because I think these parts will be supported soon within the same investigation team.

[Anchor]
If you could analyze the flight recorder like this, what would be the main contents?

[Ingyu Kim]
Flight recorders contain a lot of data. For example, aircraft navigation, altitude, speed, and posture changes all go in. In particular, in this case, there are a lot of things like engine conditions that we need to pay attention to. So you can see the timing, the time, the engine change, so what I want to pay particular attention to is when the engine stopped.

[Anchor]
If there is a power supply problem that you kept mentioning earlier, will all of those parts be recorded?

[Kim In-gyu]
Yes, it's all in. So it's possible to figure out whether only one engine went out, both engines went out, or how much time difference it went out.

[Anchor]
The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport has announced that it has started extracting information from voice recording devices, but can you confirm the reason why it had no choice but to try to land the fuselage through it?

[Ingyu Kim]
At first, I expected something like that. In fact, watching such an urgent situation coming down, I'm worried that we couldn't do that while talking to each other enough or performing a checklist.

[Anchor]
In time?

[Ingyu Kim]
That's right. Originally, there was a lot of time to do a checklist and give instructions on something, and the bookkeeper followed it and checked each other, cross-checked, and all these procedures were recorded. But since the time is so short, I'm worried that many of these parts might have been omitted.

[Anchor]
Will the results come out right away?

[Ingyu Kim]
Once the voice recording device is analyzed to some extent, I think the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport will probably open even a part of it. However, the cautious part is that if only a part of the investigation continues to be opened without the investigation has not been completed, misunderstandings and other speculations may be rampant, so we should watch this carefully.

[Anchor]
Meanwhile, due to this disaster, Muan Airport was supposed to be closed until the morning of the 1st of next month, but I think this period has been extended.

[Reporter]
That's right. The runway of Muan Airport, which was scheduled to be temporarily closed until 5 a.m. tomorrow, has been extended to 6 a.m. on the 7th. The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport announced that the timing of reopening will be additionally determined according to the situation of handling on-site accidents. However, some predict that it may take at least several months to reopen after airport maintenance, such as reinstalling damaged localizers. In addition to
there was a localizer, an azimuth facility, and a pedestal to support it, wasn't there a concrete pedestal? This structure actually has a problem. If this conclusion comes out, there are parts that need to be reconfigured and re-installed. If this happens, it will take a considerable amount of time for the runway at Muan Airport to normalize.

[Anchor]
If that happens, wouldn't it be a full investigation into all other airports?

[Reporter]
That's right. First of all, if the installation standard for the standard changes or changes in another direction in this problem, this part also needs to be applied to other airports. However, to apply it, a certain standard is set first, and since it is set for a certain period of time, the problem aside, it may take as long as it is at Muan Airport to reopen the runway.

[Anchor]
It is said that there is no bird detection radar at the domestic airport at a time when bird collisions are being identified as the primary cause. In fact, there was a lack of staff in charge even inside Muan Airport, and I'm worried about this, but isn't the preparation insufficient?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, everything we do is a matter of cost. In the case of airports, all airports are facing the beach except inland airports such as Cheongju, Yecheon, and Daegu. Therefore, being on the beach is a situation where bird activities become active or migratory birds are adjacent, so airports in Korea are inevitably exposed to bird activities. If you want to install bird detection radars or all of these airports, you also need long-term plans. Also, I think it will cost a lot of money and budget.

[Anchor]
But in addition to Muan Airport, Gimhae Airport also needs countermeasures. There are comments like this, what measures do you think other airports will need?

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, it is one of the famous migratory birds of Gimhae. In fact, there are a lot of migratory birds and birds in Jeju Island, and we need to look at the overall system, not just one airport. Then, didn't one of the problems or parts that came out in the media about the number of members of the bird eradication team come out? So, how many people were there and how many were working that day? Some say this, but there is a limit to the part and simple reinforcement of such manpower. So we can have a system where people chase birds themselves and keep the sound of decibels that birds don't like, for example, and we can find many examples of that abroad. We need to study those things together.

[Anchor]
Sir, let me ask you one more question. According to a report that the plane was known to have flown a lot of times in two days, but could these parts cause engine problems?

[Ingyu Kim]
It's very hard to say whether there is or not. Even if they operated a lot, they would have operated while keeping the minimum amount of time and legal aspects. We mentioned that the maintenance time was 28 minutes, but before I came in, I saw the news that Jeju Air would reduce the number of flights starting next year. That's what we talked about. But in the end, it's for safety. If so, reducing the number of times for safety means increasing the interval in the end. In the end, they seem to be directly related to safety because doing so would ease inspections by pilots and flight attendants and increase the amount of time for technicians to inspect.

[Anchor]
Considering the number of flights itself, it is premature to say that there is a problem.

[Ingyu Kim]
In fact, it's ambiguous to say that there's a problem or not. It's about whether you met the legal requirements or not.

[Anchor]
I see. I'll stop listening to it. So far, I've talked with Kim In-gyu, the director of the Aviation University Flight Training Center, and Baek Jong-gyu, a reporter from the Ministry of Social Affairs. Thank you.